March 19, 2026 | 1:00 PM ET | Format: 45 minutes + Live Q&A
As workflows and technology accelerate, team performance increasingly depends on one thing: whether people feel safe enough to speak clearly, challenge respectfully, and raise issues early.
We welcomed back Erika Whyte (Janney Montgomery Scott), David Hare (Waystar), and SHIFT Co-Founder Katherin Nukk-Freeman to continue their candid exploration of how Psychological Safety is being cultivated inside organizations today. They go beyond definitions into the real leadership moments where psychological safety either holds or breaks: conflict, ambiguity, speed, and pressure.
You will gain practical, experience-based strategies to:
✅ Surface concerns earlier and reduce hesitation
✅ Strengthen alignment across teams navigating rapid change
✅ Support constructive challenge to improve decision making
✅ Enable open, confident dialogue even when ambiguity is high
Who should watch: HR and People leaders, Employee Relations, Compliance, in-house Legal partners, and managers responsible for team culture.
This session offers an honest, experience-based look at how psychological safety becomes a stabilizing force during transformation and how HR leaders can build it intentionally.
Panelists
Erika White, Vice President and Director of DEI, Janney Montgomery Scott
Erika White is an award-winning Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion executive with over 25 years of experience driving strategic, people-centered transformation across complex and highly regulated organizations. Known for her ability to align DEI initiatives with business objectives, Erika brings deep expertise in relationship-building, change management, and inclusive leadership. She is a proactive and resourceful leader who partners across organizations to identify opportunities, mobilize action, and deliver meaningful, sustainable impact.
David Hare, Senior Director, Learning & Development, Waystar
David is an innovative Learning and Organizational Development executive with over 20 years of experience driving talent strategy, leadership development, and employee engagement. Known as a learning transformation specialist, he helps organizations unlock potential, elevate performance, and deliver measurable business impact. David brings a strategic yet practical approach—partnering across functions to build alignment, lead change, and implement programs that drive lasting adoption and results.
Katherin Nukk-Freeman, Co-Founder & Chief Culture Officer, SHIFT
Katherin is the Co-Founder and President of SHIFT HR Compliance Training and a passionate advocate for building better workplaces. As a dynamic employment law advisor, training instructor, and industry thought leader, Katherin partners with clients to develop and implement learning journeys to educate and evolve workplace culture and incorporate strategies to manage risk, comply with the law, foster an inclusive workplace, and create an overall better workplace with flourishing for all.
Psychological Safety in Action Part II: Leading High-Performing Teams Through Uncertainty
Katherin: Hello everybody. It is 10:00 o’clock. We are going to give it one more minute, as we see many people are rapidly signing on. So bear with us for a minute and then we’ll be ready to kick off the presentation discussion with you all. While we’re waiting, if you’d like to share in the chat where you’re joining us from today, it’s always interesting to see what parts of the country and our world are signing in to listen and be part of this discussion. So feel free to add where you’re from. Love that. Hey y’all. Great. Maryland, Chicago, all over. Love it. Okay. It’s 10:01. We are going to dive into this subject. I was talking to Erika and David before we joined all of you, and we were saying that this was one of the few areas where we got so much positive feedback, and people wanted to hear so much more about the topic than what we were able to cover the last time around, that we created this part two of the discussion, Psychological Safety in Action.
And so we were lucky enough to have Erika and David join us again. So I’m going to go over a brief introduction about me and Shift and some quick logistics, and then we’ll let Erika and David reintroduce themselves to those who’ve attended before, introduce themselves to those who are attending for the first time. So for those of you who I don’t know, my name’s Katherin Nukk Freeman, and I’m the co-founder and president, CEO, chief culture officer, and anything else the company needs me to do for Shift HR Compliance Training. And I’ve spent three decades as an employment lawyer helping organizations of all types and sizes build better workplaces with the goal of flourishing for all. And I really believe in that concept, and I know our other panelists do as well. So prior to starting Shift HR Compliance Training, I co-founded what is now the largest woman-owned employment law firm on the East Coast, Nukk Freeman and Cerra. We also have offices in California, and we’re looking to become the largest woman-owned employment law firm there as well. And so what that does is that makes Shift HR Compliance Training the only e-learning company which is both founded and run and owned by employment lawyers. So we live and breathe in the world that you all as HR leaders live and breathe within, and we understand your pain points, and we understand your joyous moments, and we love to do whatever we can to help make your jobs and lives easier and better.
The reason why we started Shift HR Compliance Training is because we saw on the legal end, whether we were litigating, defending matters, whether we were training, whether we were advising HR leaders, we just saw the issues that HR leaders were facing, and we saw how training, if done well, could really be a part of the solution to the problem. And so we really wanted to create this training that was not only legally rigorous, but more importantly, very impactful and engaging and that really drew people in so that it could be impactful and it wasn’t just a check the box, check the organization type of training, but it was a let’s move the needle and impact positive change within the workplace. And a big part of that, as we all know, who are on the call, is creating workplaces where people feel safe speaking up early, which is exactly what today’s conversation is about. So in terms of logistics, I just want to go through a couple quick logistics. First, SHRM and HRCI credit will be provided midway through the webinar. So just be on the lookout for that. Please use the chat feature for any questions and comments. We’re going to do our best to monitor it, but any chat questions we do not get to, we can certainly follow up with you or you can follow up with us offline. All of us are happy to continue this dialogue with you. We will make this as interactive and engaging as possible.
Erika and David will both be jumping in and answering the questions. Again, you all as the audience, may volunteer input too for everybody to see. And, we just all believe that that makes the conversation that much more interesting. We’re also going to share some information about our upcoming demo days and an April webinar that Shift is hosting for those of you who are interested and want to continue on this journey with us. And I always invite those in attendance to follow us on LinkedIn. We try to really provide as much interesting material to you all in your capacity as HR leaders and DEI leaders as possible. And then if we could get you to fill out the survey at the end of this webinar, that would be very helpful to both us and to you because we always look for input on what are the other topics that you’re interested in hearing about, what topics might you be an expert in where you’d like to volunteer to be a panelist like Erika and David. And we just love feedback and we love information. So again, now I’m thrilled to welcome back both Erika and David, my co-panelists for today. And I’d like each of them to give a brief description about themselves. So Erika, if you’d like to kick it off with your personal introduction, that would be…
Erika: Thank you so much, Katherin, and good morning and good afternoon and possibly good evening to all of you who are joining this webinar today. My name is Erika White, and I am the vice president and director of diversity, equity, and inclusion at Janney Montgomery Scott. We are a wealth management firm headquartered in Philadelphia, but we have offices primarily up and down the East Coast, and we’re pushing Midwest as… I’m excited to be here. I’m excited to continue the conversation, and I look forward to learning from David and from Katherin and from all of you.
Katherin: Thank you, Erika. Thank you so much. David?
David: Absolutely. It is an honor and privilege to be on this panel again. I just have to tell you all somethingFirst time it was amazing. This time, I’m actually a little bit nervous. I was like, to be on this panel with both of you, Erika and Kathryn, because we had such a good time, but I’m like, “Can we go out and deliver it again?” And I am in Louisville, Kentucky, so I see a couple of Louisvilles show up on there. And yes, I’m saying it correctly, Louisville. But with that being said, I work with Waystar, and we are a software company in the healthcare revenue cycle, and we help healthcare organizations get paid. And we want to simplify the process of healthcare payments here within the US, and we feel that we have a solution that makes that happen. So I’m excited to be a part of that as the senior director of learning and development, and prior to that, have served in this type of capacity for industries from manufacturing, to pet, to banking, and other services. And so it’s exciting to be here with each of you today.
Katherin: Thank you, David. And so just to recap, for those of you who weren’t part of our first session, and maybe even those of you who were and have had a lot going on since then, so in our first session, we explored what psychological safety is, the shared belief that it’s okay to speak up, to take risks, to ask questions, and to admit mistakes without fear of embarrassment or retaliation in the workplace. Right? So we talked about what it is. We discussed about why it’s a business imperative in today’s culture to understand these concepts and to create this space with psychological safety.
So today, we’re taking that, and then we’re going to dive even deeper, and we’re going to look into more of the real-world situations and moments that we all encounter in the workplace where psychological safety may be tested, and where there may be conflict, and where there may be ambiguity, and there may be speed, because we’re all trying to do so many things even faster than we’ve ever done them before. And then what we, as HR leaders, can do to strengthen psychological safety, and how we can coach the other leaders within our organization who perhaps don’t have the HR and DEI backgrounds that we have to do the same. So we’re going to ask a series of questions. Erika and David are going to weigh in and share their thoughts, and again, I encourage any of you who have insights to do so as well.
So kicking off the first question, since our first conversation this past November, what have you seen shift in how organizations approach psychological safety? So has there been a shift since November, and what have you seen?
Erika: I’ll kick us off. I have seen a shift, and that shift has come under my purview within the HR function and then other groups that I have an opportunity to engage with. This shift has come about because there is this willingness to take a risk, but also to reduce the risk level, right? Mm-hmm. And so reducing that risk level helps to gain safety. It might sound very simple and sophomoric, but when you reduce anxiety and you reduce that risk, people feel more engaged and more apt to be vulnerable. And I also have experience where leaders are willing to sit in their own discomfort, right? Sit in your own discomfort so that the people that you’re engaging with feel comfortable to take that risk of sharing whatever it is they have to share. The other thing that I’ve noticed is people here are trading their silence for candidness. So no longer do we have to be silent in order for us to be vulnerable or to take that calculated risk. And then the last thing I’ll say that I’ve noticed here is that there has been a willingness to relinquish control in order to gain collaboration. Like I don’t have to own everything, but I can encourage all of us to be collaborative, and those are the small, simple acts that I’ve seen start to peel back that onion and allow people to be vulnerable and take those risks.
Katherin: And Erika, do you think you’ve seen those because your organization is now more aware and present in this space, and so it’s part of the vernacular and dialogue, and so that’s how you’re seeing the progress?
Erika: Absolutely. And shameless plug, thank you to Shift. We do have those courses, right? So if you are a new joiner to the organization, you are taking a course, so you have the baseline of competency as it relates to psychological safety. And so because we’re being very intentional around making sure that everybody has access to just-in-time learning that has helped us lay that foundation. And then also understanding that the world is changing around us, and we have to, at some point, make work feel like a safe place because we’re spending so much time here.
Katherin: You’re right. And we’re spending so much time with each other. Well, I have to say, that’s music to my ears from two perspectives. One, Shift loves to make an impact, so I’m happy that our courses are helping your team go next level. And two, wearing my law firm hat, I’m happy because even though my law firm handles litigation, I love to hear that clients are doing the types of things to create the type of environment that is going to cut down on the likelihood of employees making complaints against the organization. And you’re creating this culture where you’re more likely to flourish than have to fend off litigation-
Erika: Yeah … and that sort of thing. So that’s such good news, Erika. I think the other thing, too, which I’m finding personally, is my phone is ringing a lot more because people feel as if they can talk to me. But then I am also equipping them with how to engage in conversations with their peers or leaders so that they can create the space where there is an exchange of dialogue, right? So I have found since… And it’s a wonderful thing, don’t get me wrong, but I have found more people that I’ve– I’ve been here almost four years. I have found more people calling me because they want to have these conversations, and we are creating an atmosphere- Mm-hmm … which makes it wonderful for them to engage.
Katherin: That’s great. And I’m sure that’s in part not only because you’re weaving it into the culture of the organization, but also because you’re so approachable and accessible. And anybody in that role, that’s just all the more encouragement how they should embrace that, because then they will get those questions and those issues and be able to serve their constituents even better. So, oh, great feedback. Great points. David, anything else that you’re seeing since just a few months ago in November?
David: Absolutely. I think it was, we had a speaker come to our organization back in January and put some things on a map as it relates to AI and what it’s doing within all of our industries and businesses. He made a statement, he said, “We are living in the least amount of change that we will see in the next two years.” Which is scary . Yeah. That’s a really scary thing to think of. It really is, and what I have seen is our organization really embrace, and I love the word that you keep using, Erika, creating space for people to be able to lean in and to have a voice on what is taking place, how it’s impacting them. We create labs and experiences for people to be able to have a voice to say, “This is scary. This is new. This is difficult.” And when you’re trying to implement a playbook that has no history, there’s not a historical playbook on how to implement AI into the different workings of workspace and what you’re doing. You need to create space for people to be able to have the conversation, and to have a leadership team that has owned that, embraced that, created that environment so that those things can be voiced. That’s been a huge change that I continue to see evolve as we are growing in our capabilities. And so that’s been a huge implementation that I’ve seen over the last several months.
Katherin: Those are great points, and you’re exactly right. As much as we all are sitting here thinking work has never been as fast-paced as before, and then to think it’s just going to speed up. And I’m seeing some of the same things you’re seeing, like because of the acceleration of AI, which, I mean, I’m sure you’ve all heard the statement. Like if AI can’t do something today, check again next week, and it probably will be able to do it. I mean, the developments are so fast. On the one hand, it excites certain portions of your population of employees. On the other hand, it terrifies them, right? And so they may be feeling psychologically unsafe because they’re hearing things that are being read in the news, like x number of jobs are going to disappear. People are no longer going to be needed. They don’t know where they fit into that equation. And so that creates this environment where we have that much more of a need for psychological safety. So you’re exactly right.
And then for organizations like both of yours who are actually addressing these issues, I’m also seeing that this information and knowledge base is trickling down beyond learning and development, DEI, HR, to middle management. And managers are being educated, whether it’s through training or otherwise, and coached on how can you as a department head or you as a people manager, create this psychologically safe space for your employees. So again, the goal is so everybody can flourish. We all benefit. The individual employee benefits when they’re flourishing. The team lead benefits when their team is flourishing. And then the organization benefits when they’ve got multifunctional departments, right? We all thrive. Exactly. And that’s what we all want in our roles as- Yep … DEI and HR and L & D. And I’m also seeing organizations more and more who are now aware of these concepts of psychological safety. They’re measuring, they’re pulse tracking, because we all love data. Data informs what we do going forward. And so I’m seeing more of that happening in the psychological safety realm. So thank you so much for your feedback there. Now another good question. So in each of your experiences, when is psychological safety most likely to break down? What are the circumstances where you can kind of brace yourself for a little bit of a breakdown in psychological safety?
David: I’ll start us off with this one to say, for the same reasons why we need psychological safety, those are the same conditions that happen within our world that can cause it to break down. And I mean, there’s a term that we’ve used for years called VUCA. VUCA describes the environment around us where it’s volatile, uncertain, chaotic, and ambiguous. And when you are living in a space where it’s not as easy to predict what tomorrow’s going to hold, sometimes psychological safety can be a risk where you try to take some measure of control. Mm-hmm. Because the antithesis of psych safety is control, and it’s like where people try to take control of things that are difficult, and they want to drive it just in one direction rather than creating space for others to be a part of that. So I think sometimes VUCA can create pressure and can create this pressure cooker, where then your initial reaction is, how do I manage and control that?Versus creating the space in order for those conversations to take place. And especially when things are moving that quickly. And it can feel like chaos, but it really is a place where you have to slow down to go faster.
Katherin: Mm-hmm. You’re so right.
David: You have to be able to hit that pause button in order to be able to move that forward. And creating safety for people to share in that moment is going to be key for them to embrace and take ownership of where we’re going.
Katherin: You’re exactly right. I was just reading something that specified exactly what you’re saying. That when speed is prioritized over dialogue, that’s when you have more issues. So that’s great points. Thanks, David. Yeah. Erika.
Erika: I think you were mentioning a lot of metrics, and so I think many organizations use metrics as their benchmark and barometer for how they approach things. So McKinsey did a study recently that shared that teams that are micromanaged are 35% less likely to be innovative. Think about that number. That is a huge number, and the trickle down effect of teams not being productive, that has impact on your ability to go to market with product. It has ability to impact how your team’s development happens. It has an impact on whether people just choose to stay, right? And so if that happens, your competitive advantage is now impacted because of all of these other things, and you’re not creating a space where people feel valued. Micromanaging impacts psychological safety. The lack of trust. If you give a task to your colleagues, your peers, your team, and then you’re over their shoulder, how are they supposed to feel like they can create, they can innovate, they can storm and form because you’re constantly trying to improve on something that they even haven’t had a chance to get started with, right? So micromanaging a team can really impact team’s ability to thrive and cause breakdown. I think the other thing that we see a lot, at least in my 30-plus-year career, is when people are publicly ridiculed in meetings.
The last thing you want to have done to you is to be called out in a meeting for something, because what happens, sometimes you are either going to react by being maybe verbally abusive, or you’re going to shrink and not ever speak up, right? And so breakdown happens when there is not a check on how we talk to each other, right? The other thing that I think happens inside organizations is that we ignore our employees. We don’t listen to their feedback. We don’t take consideration for what is going to be best for them. And one of the things that we’re going to be working on here at Jani is an innovation program where we are asking our employees to come up with ideas that are going to help our firm go to market with product, achieve success for our clients and colleagues, and come up with creative ideas. Well, if we micromanage that process, where’s the creativity? It’s gone. Right? We can’t ask people to do a task and then not trust that they’re going to do a task and do it well because they’re afraid of the ramifications that could possibly happen as a result. And then the last thing I’ll say is unrealistic expectations. If we can’t figure out how long it’s going to take us to do something and you want it done yesterday, think about AI. Just like you said, next week it’s going to be something else. But if you have an expectation that we’re going to move mountains and implement AI in our atmosphere, in our ecosystems with any success, and then move on to the next thing, then we’re not being realistic, and we’re going to hit against that 35% that are going to say, “You know what? I’m tapping out.”
Katherin: Mm-hmm. Right. So let me ask you this, because I’m sure the HR leaders on the call get pushback from the people managers. You mentioned already, if you give assignments and tasks to your team and then you micromanage them, you’re not necessarily going to get the result. What is the ideal thing to do? If you give somebody the expectation, and you give somebody the assignment and the requirement, is it you’re just measuring in due course whether or not they’re actually doing what you ask them to do? What’s the difference between a manager who’s tracking the accomplishment of action steps versus micromanaging?
Erika: Trust. Trust that plays out. Trust the process, trust your people. Trust that you have equipped them with enough skills and assets and collateral to be able to deliver, right? And then again, make it safe for them to fail forward. If something doesn’t work, iterate, collaborate, move on to the next thing. I think about it, I have a project management background, and so with the Agile methodology, if it didn’t work in this sprint, we’re going to add it to the second sprint, and we’re going to keep going. And so when you create that atmosphere that I’m going to trust that you know what to do because I am secure in how we collaborate together. If I am not secure, my biggest insecurity would be to be over your shoulder. Because I’m not creating a space for you to be innovative and creative. Right? We have to let people do their jobs.
Katherin: And then at the end of the day, you’re looking at results. Right. Did they do their jobs? Or did they not? Did they not? Or accomplish-
Erika: And then also check in, right? Your responsibility is to check in and to make sure that you are creating a space where they feel comfortable checking in. Because if I am not comfortable checking in with you and you’re my manager, then what’s going to happen? By the time you get me the end result, it’s going to be a blow-up, right? So you have to be able to trust your team, and your teams have to be willing to trust you.
Katherin: Right. Yeah. That’s a good point, the mutual trust. I like that. Awesome.
David: I was going to say, there’s one thing and something that you said that I think is so vital, and that is, when we’re assigning things out and we’re wanting to build, I think we have to have a stated intention around how we want our relationships to operate. And we have to have be able to bring the question: how do you want me to play this role in this relationship that’s best for you? And I think a part of that in asking how people like to be led in that experience, and then you can share, “Here’s what I have to deliver.” Because sometimes I may be checking up not because that’s exactly what I was doing, but maybe somebody above me is pinging me all day long.
Katherin: That’s a good point. Right? Mm-hmm. That’s a really good point.
David: And so I think that when you have this open line of communication and there’s clarity on that, then you can move forward. The other thing is this, I think you need to ensure that you’re checking before you check up. Make sure you check in before you check up when you’re having conversations with those you lead if you want to build psychological safety in those discussions. How are you checking in on things before you check up on what’s getting done? And so I think that’s number two.
And third, right along with your trust, I think trust does have a direct relationship with site safety and so does autonomy. Do I feel as though I have an appropriate amount of autonomy in order to carry things through? And autonomy is not just carte blanche because even CEOs have limited autonomy, but it is, let’s make sure that we’re talking about that big A word of what does that look like for you? And how do you want to have autonomy in what you share? How do you want to have autonomy in how you work? And just being able to define that conversationally so that we have this mutual agreement of how we’re going to work moving forward. It’s the simple skills of direct communication.
Katherin: Great feedback from both of you. So thank you for those points. They really resonate. Okay, now this next question, we actually have had a number of the attendees on this call reach out about it. So many people are asking this question.
So if you’re in an organization where psychological safety has been damaged, so maybe somebody was shut down, maybe somebody was ignored, what can leaders do to repair that? Any thoughts?
Erika: One of the things that we were talking about before everyone got on, and I’m a firm believer is, I love the check-in and check-up, but check yourself. Check yourself. If I had a bad day, my morning started off horribly, and that manifested in how I treated somebody that day, then I have an obligation myself as that leader, be vulnerable enough to say, “You know what? Something happened today, and instead of talking about what we had on the agenda, I need to be vulnerable and share with you.” So giving a little bit of myself and making myself vulnerable, and that awareness of how I am coming across to people.
The second thing I would say to that is, so that is really examining your own story. What part of your story didn’t show up in the best light that you were aware of? But when it has been damaged, I think of the person who felt the damage, the recipient. There is an onus of that recipient to make sure that they let whomever know that there is an offense that they felt. Because it is not what came out of their mouths, it’s how it made me feel as the recipient of either an outburst or whatever it was. So again, that’s the part of psychological safety. But you have to take a calculated risk, and are you willing to take that risk to allow that leader or that colleague to know, “Hey, this hurt my feelings,” or, “That was unnecessary,” or, “This was not the time or the place to have that discussion, and let’s talk about it.”
And so the best teams, I think, can storm and form together, and the storming part is that friction. How is what you’re saying being received by me, and how is what I’m saying being received by you? And at any point at that time, we both have to be cognizant of how we are coming across. And if I am the victim where that trust has been broken, and I feel like my leader has broken that trust with me, I have got to be vulnerable enough to share that, and that is where you take that risk. You have to assess whether or not that risk is worth you taking. I’ve had this conversation with a colleague who called my office crying, very upset because they did not like the way they were treated. After I listened, because I wanted to hear if there was more to the story behind the words that I was hearing, and there was. There had been a history of transgression from this leader and people in this office. And I asked that person, “How much are you willing to take a risk? How much do you really want to let them know?” They were very afraid at first because they didn’t think that leader was going to change anything. It’s not going to change anything. You’ve got to give them the benefit of the doubt. Give them the benefit of the doubt and take that risk and let them know.
It’s not about what you think you said, but it’s how I feel, how it landed on me that’s the most important piece. And that’s how we were able to, after a while, get them comfortable. Because literally it takes practice. You have to be able to practice those things with people in your circle that you trust. And once you’ve approached that leader, the last thing I’ll say is, once you’ve approached that leader or the transgressor in this case, and left it on the table about how what transpired left you feeling, you’ve done everything that you can do in that situation. Because, again, you took the risk, you shared your vulnerability, you allowed them to understand how it landed with you, and now how you would like to be interacted with going forward.
Katherin: And Erika, what do you do when someone comes to you and, say you think that they are hypersensitive to an issue, and you don’t necessarily think any of their peers feel the way they do with similar conversation, but somebody is super sensitive. How do you advise the manager in that regard, that one person may be different than the bulk of employees? And then what do you do if you think it’s overly sensitive? Right. How do you coach a manager through that?
Erika: I think managers need to understand each individual personality on their team.
Katherin: Like each of your children, if you have children?
Erika: Yes. Right. If I have seven people reporting to me, and six of them are kind of like the group think, and I know exactly how they’re going to respond and react- Yeah … and the seventh person isn’t, it is my job as a leader to make sure I am connecting with that seventh person because they don’t respond to the group think. And that’s where you have to use your business acumen, your management acumen, your skill set. You take courses, you do these just-in-time learning experiences, so you understand how to individually respond to people. So whether or not that person is oversensitive, that is okay. It’s my job to make sure that I meet them where they are, and they feel comfortable, because even if I personally don’t think that whatever was said or done was that super critical, it doesn’t matter what I think, it matters what that person feels. That’s what’s really important.
And I always go back to what Maya Angelou said, “it matters what people feel. Doesn’t matter what you said, matters how people feel when they have left an encounter with you.”. And so that’s where I think it’s the manager’s responsibility to have a lot of self-awareness. And if you are one that was promoted because you were good at your job, not because you were good at managing people, then you have a responsibility to make sure that you strengthen those muscles that you haven’t had to strengthen before. And treat each person as an individual.
Katherin: And you’re right, that’s where training can be really helpful because you may have a number of managers in the seats who are really good at what they do, but don’t have this background with this topic. Thank you, Erika. David, do you have anything you’d like to add?
David: Yeah, this is so good, and part of this links to… We do training inside the organization around Crucial Conversations, and there’s some money questions in Crucial that address some of this topic. Money question number one is, why would a reasonable, rational, decent person respond the way they’re responding?. So you put them in the position, you turn them from being the exception to just, why would somebody respond that way? Because they’re hurt, because they’re scared. You begin to figure out what that is, and then you have to ask the very difficult question, what am I pretending not to see about my role that’s creating this situation?
Then that goes into the famous words of the great poet, Ice Cube, “Check yourself before you wreck yourself,” right? You have to know that. Now, the last thing I’ll say around this is if you want to repair it, then I’m going to use a four-letter word here, so get ready. You have to L-O-V-E them. And what I mean by that is you need to Listen, Observe, Value, and Empathize. As you are walking through those waters, are you listening? Like you said, am I listening for the question behind the question? Am I listening for what’s there? Am I observing what is going on with them and around them? Do I say things that demonstrate value creation, not value extraction? And do I show empathy in a way at which I truly understand where they’re coming from?
Katherin: Great. That’s a great acronym, so thank you for sharing that. I’m sure everyone’s taking notes right now from what both of you are saying. Okay. Here’s another follow-up question from last November. So in the last session, we talked about how psychological safety doesn’t necessarily mean comfort. It means the confidence that discomfort won’t lead to punishment. So how can teams encourage this healthy discourse or healthy conflict without allowing it to become personal or divisive? So how can we have these courageous conversations, raising and resolving conflict, without letting it become personal or divisive? Thoughts.
David: I’m just going to jump in real quick and just say one thing. One is, I think you have to build the condition and expectation. So again, this is another quote that I love from a teaching that we do here, and that is, there is no comfort in the growth zone, but there’s no growth in the comfort zone either. And that when you look at how you condition your body to strengthen, muscles are strengthened through tension and friction. And the same is true, iron sharpens iron as we go through this. But you have to realize that, and we set the condition to say, if you’re experiencing something that doesn’t feel comfortable, it could be because you’re in the growth zone.
If you feel that it’s a safety issue, then speak up. Let me know.We’re going to fix that. But if it’s discomfort because, man, I’m not used to… Because some people come from, maybe their home environment is, we didn’t argue about things, right? Mm-hmm. We went to our rooms and we went away. Or some people came from environments where, it was pots and pans and everything else. Right. And it’s like, we bring that all together, but what we can do as leaders is establish, here’s our expectation. Here’s what I want for you before I discuss what I want from you. And what I want for you is for you to be able to share these things, is for us to be able to wrestle with vulnerability, right? And to be able to get to what’s the best solution. I think that’s part of how you have to build that expectation. And then when the moment happens, honor that moment. Don’t try to dismiss it. Let us continue to rumble with it.
Katherin: Love it. Yeah. Thank you, Daivd. I love that.
Erika:I think on top of that, I would add that disagreements are opportunities for growth. Mm-hmm. Full stop. We need to disagree in order for us to grow. We need to, again, I’ll go back to the phrase storm and form, in order to get the outcome. The second thing I will add here is remain focused on what you’re trying to solve. What is the outcome, right? It doesn’t mean that if we’re going to have the group think, we can get to an outcome really quickly, right? Right. Doesn’t mean it’s going to be good, but it means that we all agreed because the one contrarian didn’t feel safe enough to speak up and say, “Yeah, I don’t think we should-” Right. “We should think about this,” right? And then when it gets to leveling up and managing up, the last thing you want is for the leader to say, that you have to report out to, “Well, no one brought up this,” and that one person who had that on their mind didn’t bring it up, right? Because they were afraid to partake in the storming part of the forming, right? So remember that disagreements are opportunities for growth… and that we have to stay focused on what the end goal is, right? And that it doesn’t have to be pretty, and it doesn’t have to be perfect, but we need to assume positive intent from everybody.
Katherin: Yeah. That really resonates. I love the concept of normalize disagreement as a sign of engagement, not disrespect. Like normalize that. And it makes me think of, I’ve had a business coach over the years who’s just shared so many gems with me, and one of them was that he believed the greatest trait we can each incorporate into both our professional and our personal lives is the ability to learn how to raise and resolve conflict. So disagreement. And he called it like the multiple Rs, where he said, “Whenever there is a conflict, don’t keep it in, but think about the four R’s.” Like Raise that disagreement or that issue at the Right time, which is not months later after you’ve allowed it to fester, but it’s in the here and the now or as close to that as possible, with the right person. So not talking behind the backs of somebody to colleagues who can’t make an impact. But with the Right person directly, for the right reason, to make this a higher functioning relationship, team, organization, and in the Right way. In a rational and calm and thoughtful way. So I think those are good things to coach managers on. To raise and resolve conflict, and to coach team members on. Raise and resolve conflict in the right way, with the right person, at the right time, for the right reason. So, yeah, I think those are all-
Erika: And don’t let it fester, right? Exactly. Don’t let it fester. Don’t let it fester. Don’t let it boil to the point where it’s boiling over and people feel resentment, discouraged. And then quite honestly, know your audience. Because there are some generations that say, “You know what? I don’t need this.” And they’re going to go, right? And so we have to think about understanding who is in the room, who is watching, and how are we going to respond.
Katherin: Right. No, that’s a great point. Some other thoughts that I’ve been hearing a lot about and reading a lot about, and I’m sure you two would agree, concepts like, if we’re really looking to encourage this healthy conflict, right, we want to separate somebody’s idea from the identity. So maybe we want to challenge- Mm … the thinking expressed. We’re not challenging the person or their credibility or their candor, whatever it is. We’re challenging the thinking, the thought. Also, I’ve seen organizations and teams move towards establishing meeting norms that explicitly welcome dissent. Like ask the team, does anybody see something I don’t see here? Yeah. Does anybody disagree with this? Does anybody see a downside? Like really working that into the framework of the conversation. Because I, sitting in my seat, I may miss certain things. Like, what am I missing? What am I not seeing- Yeah … that you all are seeing? And I’ve also seen a lot being incorporated in terms of leaders who, they really start to model receiving this pushback, feedback more calmly because they’re recognizing, I’m encouraging people to challenge the thinking. They’re not challenging me as the leader. Yes. They’re challenging the thinking. I shouldn’t take this personally. I should be curious. Curious as to what these other perspectives really are, right?
Erika: I think your professional acumen speaks to your ability to take feedback and not take that feedback personally, right? Personally. Right. I’m one that has my own personal board of directors, and those are people that I bounce ideas off of- Yes … right? Yes. I love it. And I always have two or three contrarians that I know- Yes … are going to be the contrarians- Right … in that group, because I want that challenge. I want that- Yeah … contrary opinion. I want that contrary thought leadership, and treat it as such. Because it’s only going to make me a better leader it’s going to make me a better thinker, and it’s going to make me more intuitive to environments and shifting environments that I have an opportunity to witness and be involved in.
Erika: So that’s why you’re so evolved, Erika. You’ve got that board of directors with somebody with each different opinion. That’s very wise.
Katherin: Okay, next question. So many organizations struggle with hesitation. That is, people waiting too long to raise concerns. They’re letting them fester, to your point earlier. So, what other things, in addition to what we just talked about, will help teams surface these issues earlier rather than letting employees sit on them, talk about them behind the backs of others, all that sort of thing? What else can be done?
David: So, this is where I think the leaders play such a critical role, and here’s the reason why. I know some people teach in their leadership philosophies, and again, I’m not judging, but I’m saying if this is your thought, it does create hesitation. You make everyone that comes to you or brings an idea has to have it fully cooked. If the only thing you’re willing to accept is, “Don’t bring me a problem unless you have three good solutions- Right … that go along with it,” and everything else. And sometimes I feel like, well, if I had the three good solutions, I don’t know that I need to bring it to you. Right? But that, I think-
Katherin: And you hear that often. Right?
David: Yeah. And, again, I’m not judging the practice, but you’re building the condition to where everybody feels like the only time that they can open their mouth is when they have it all together. And that’s not psychologically safe… But here’s number two, the most important part, and the most important thing I’m going to say all day. As a leader, what you model, others will mimic. And so it puts you in a place in which if you model vulnerability, if you model welcoming people to challenge, if you model giving them the space and the place to have the autonomy to speak up when it’s not buttoned up, if you model that, then others will mimic it across the team. But if you model it in a different direction, people will mimic what you model.
Katherin: Right. Good points. Thanks. Totally agree with that.
Erika: Working in the wealth management space, everything is about dollars and cents at the end of the day. What resonates with leaders is what is the value add to the client? How can we make sure that we are making ourselves the wealth manager of choice? And a lot of that comes down to dollars and cents. And I like to put numbers in front of leaders when I talk to them so that they can see these are real numbers that many people smarter than me have done the research, right? So Forbes did a study that said companies, roughly $100 million in lost productivity when collaboration becomes a roadblock. Think about that. That is a real number of how much it costs firms when things aren’t working well, right? And all of this can be tied to psychological safety. Every single dollar, I can absolutely make the through line to teams aren’t productive. There’s no speak up culture. There is no autonomy. There is micromanaging. I don’t feel like I can take a risk. I cannot be vulnerable. And every single one of those has a through line, is tangential to the bottom line figure, right?
So when you put huge numbers like that in front of people, and then you peel back the onion and say, “No, it’s not the fact that we’re losing clients. No, it’s not the fact that we don’t have a good product. No, it’s not the fact that we are not innovative, and we can’t go to market fast. It is because people don’t feel safe to speak up, and they are losing. They are leaving.” And your history of the people who know the business, they’re walking out, and they’re saying, “You know what? I don’t need this.” So how do you stop that? In this industry, we have training every year about know your customer, KYC. KYC this, KYC that. I think I can probably recite that training verbatim. I’ve heard it and witnessed it and been part of it for decades. I would argue that as much as you need to know your customer, you need to KYT. Oh. Know your team. Right. Know your team. And it may sound very simple and sophomoric, but if you know your team, the intellectual capital won’t walk out of the building. Right. They will feel safe to speak up because you’ve created that speak up culture. They will understand that you are treating them as a individual and not as a groupthink and part of the groupthink tank, and that you have created space for them to be willing to take a risk and try something different for the betterment of the group, or the betterment of the team, or the betterment of the firm. So we can mitigate the financial loss if we tie it back to creating psychologically safe environments.
Katherin: Love it. Thanks, Erika. And then just to kind of close that loop on this question, which is what helps teams surface issues earlier. I know our audience loves takeaways, and we’ve gotten some amazing ones from you both. Just a couple other ones that, again, I’ve been seeing and hearing about. Building into meeting agendas, a regular, quote-unquote, red flag agenda items to raise it, to prompt people to raise, what are we not seeing here? What are we missing? Maybe structured check-ins, like, what are we concerned about here? What could derail us? Again, the concept of early risk identification, catching it earlier.
To David’s point, maybe not having all the solutions to address the risk, but identifying the risk so that opens the dialogue to then solving for the risk. So just a couple other ideas for our audience. I think the last question we’re going to be able to answer today before we have to sign off is, and this ties in with the concept of our audience really does love when we’re able to provide real, practical behaviors that can help them implement positive improvement. So let’s just spend a few minutes talking about what are the small, everyday leadership behaviors that most influence psychological safety. What’s something that I’m sure many of our HR, DEI, L&D leaders on the call are already thinking about, reading about, and hearing about, but what is important for them to pass on to next level managers to incorporate into their daily leadership so that they can be as evolved as the HR, DEI, L&D leaders on the team? Any thoughts there?
Erika: I think one of the things that we talked about before everyone gathered is something that I tried last week with my colleagues and peers, and that is, it’s such a small, yet very nuanced approach to how you make sure that you understand your team and your team understands you, and that you are making a connection. So try this. Next Monday, when everybody is back to work after the weekend, instead of asking people, “Oh, how was your weekend?” Uh-huh. And everybody responding that same, “Oh, it was good. It was fine. It was okay.” Yeah. Right? Because that’s a quick way for them to get in and out of that conversation with you and then move on. Instead, ask them, “What happened during the weekend that gave you joy?” Because now you are creating an intentional relationship with your team, and you are going beyond the surface, and you are creating a space for them to come into your space and you were to go into theirs, because you might learn something new that will help you when you have… If you have, if you have a conversation that might be a little controversial or it’s the storming and forming, it might inform you how that person thinks about things and what’s really important to them. So whether or not they come back and say, “You know what? Nobody’s ever asked me that. I just sat and read a book. That gave me joy,” or, “I played with my grandchild. That gave me joy,” or, “I took a walk, I took a yoga class,” whatever it is, because now you’re getting below the surface and you’re asking for some connection that allows people into each other’s spaces.
Katherin: I love that. Thank you for sharing that.
David: That’s amazing. Yeah. So a couple of quick things. One is, the question, are you listening to learn or are you listening to respond? And so when someone is sharing something, listen, genuinely listen, and don’t be so quick to give a response. Number two is this. When somebody has the courage, follow up with them and say, “You know what? I have to tell you, Erika, when you said that in the meeting yesterday, or you said that in the meeting earlier today, that was something that I want you to feel free to do all the time.” Because, again, I’m going to hit you with this one, what you recognize gets repeated. What you recognize gets repeated. So when you recognize it, when you acknowledge it, when you follow up with people and let them know how that went. And then the third one is, you were talking about all these whys. I think one of the practices is you got to OYS, you got to own your stuff, and you need to own it when you step in it, and you need to seek that back out with your team members to let them know, this is what I want for you. And I know in that meeting when I saw you shut down after I said that, like OYS so that you can bring them back in to that conversation and there’s no gaps. I think those are just some very practical day in, day out tips that can keep that alive in the conversation.
Katherin: I love it. And I have to say to both you and to the audience, we still had about 35% of great questions that we didn’t even get to, so we may need a round three of this amazing conversation. So we’re pretty much wrapped up here and now, but we’d love to hear from the audience. Would you attend another session if we still have another third of content and really great takeaways for you to share with us? And if so, let us know. Please complete the survey. Please follow us on LinkedIn. For those of you who would like to see more about the course that Erika referenced and how Shift really introduces the concept of psychological safety, our team is doing a walkthrough of that course next Wednesday and Thursday, and there’s a demo day registration link, which we invite you to participate in.
And finally, we hope that you’ll all join us for our next webinar in April, where we’re going to walk through the most recent legislative, regulatory, workplace compliance standards, of which we know there are many, and that is on April 30th. So you’ll receive invitations to that. You can check out our website.
Thank you to our amazing panelists. You two did not disappoint. In fact, continued to exceed my already awesome expectations of you both. And thank you to a very active audience and for everyone in attendance. Have a great day. And look forward to seeing you again soon. Thank you.
